时间：2007年5月24日 

地点：北大文博学院

人物：徐天进、原弓、张小涛    

整理：康栏蓝、刘智彬

Time: May 24, 2007

Location: Beijing University Museum Academy

People: Xu Tianjin, Yuan Gong, Zhang Xiaotao

Compilation: Kang Lanlan, Liu Zhibin

徐：昨天刚拿到你的图录，我感觉它像是一个社会学的论文集的论述。我跟原弓商量要做一个系列的活动，对我们来讲是从古代出发与当代交流的碰撞。

Xu Tianjin: I got your catalog yesterday, and it seems like an abstract on a collection of sociology theses. I talked with Yuan Gong about doing a series of events, which to us would be a clash of the ancient and the contemporary.

张：我的工作也是用古典的精神和当代的方法重新编码今天的文化现实。

Zhang Xiaotao: My work is to use a classical spirit and contemporary methods to newly encode today's cultural reality.

徐：你文章里面经常提到的一个词“历史的文脉”，这是我们有共鸣的地方。我们做展览的一个大的背景就是定位在古今一体恒久当代。我们现在是人为的把古代当代隔离开，然后把中国和外国隔离开，是封闭自己的一个东西，对我们做考古的人来讲，虽然研究的对象一直都是古代，但把思路打开以后，直到现在，才发现古人与今人不仅相似，而且没有变化。形式变化太多了，人思考的终极问题，仍在思考，我觉得古代和当代没有什么区别。

Xu: In your articles you often mention a term, “traces of history”, and this is where we are in unison. A big backdrop for our exhibitions is to define them as a constant contemporary consisting of a unified past and present. Right now we have an artificial separation of ancient and contemporary, and a separation of China and abroad. This isolates us. For archaeologists such as ourselves, though we research ancient times, when we open our minds we realize that ancient and modern people are not only similar, they haven't changed. There have been many fluctuations, but the main issues that people pondered, they're still pondering them. I don't see much of a difference between ancient and contemporary.

张：我觉得学科之间需要这种融合，包括政治、历史、文化的变异和延续，如何面对全球化，本土化以及现代性？通过对这些问题的讨论，或许对未来更有启发性……

Zhang: I think that there should be this kind of interaction between fields, including the changes and continuations in politics, history and culture, how to face globalization, regionalism and modernity. Through discussions of these issues, maybe there will be more inspiration for the future...

徐：当我们用现代的艺术形式来表现当代社会问题的时候，好多问题是历史的问题，几千年以前一直存在。

Xu: When we use modern art form to present contemporary social issues, many of the issues are historical ones, and have been around for millenia.

张：我们也想用视觉图像语言今天的文化现实，后来人的考古可能是视觉考古，包括文本，图像的物质化。比如我们全球化交流以后，变异出新的基因，它可能不是简单的学西方的，或者社会主义的系统，也不是传统的系统。

Zhang: We want to use visual images to give voice to today's reality. Archaeology of the future may be visual archaeology, including the materialization of text and images. For instance, the new genes that mutate out of a global exchange might not be a simple case of learning from the west or a socialist system, maybe not even a system in the traditional sense.

徐：上午在社科院看到一本书跟你要表达的思想太接近了。

Xu: This morning I read a book at the Academy of Social Sciences that was along exactly the same lines.

张：2004年我做的个展《梦工厂·垃圾场》，就是在关注社会剧烈的变革当中，个人的精神历程。那种矛盾性和冲突性，是在废墟当中的重生。把我关注的微观视点放在一个物质化背景里边，从毛时代到现在的全球化经济，找一些典型的个案。我为什么会选重钢和世界之窗，让动物进入钢厂，用白骨来炼钢，炼出来的钢再生产飞机大炮，动物在里边打仗，可能有现代化的隐喻，比如代价和伤痛。最后是动物荒诞的把它再拆掉，这是“六道轮回”的时空观。在废墟上再建世界公园，再建集约化加工工厂。自由经济对社会主义历史遗产与政治经济全方位的颠覆，我的源点是来自《帝国》的概念，是全球化对今天中国的文化、经济、艺术、政治的改变，我们得反思在后社会主义中什么已经死亡？什么依然存活？我们不得不追问我在哪里？世界在哪里？我要用作品重现这个崩溃的过程和重生的过程。

Zhang: The solo exhibition I did in 2004, Dream Factory – Garbage Dump focused on the individual spiritual process in the midst of dramatic social change. The conflict in that was a rebirth from the ruins. I put my microscopic view against a materialized backdrop, and searched for some individual cases from the Mao Era to today's global economy.  I chose Chongqing Steel and Window to the World to send the animals into the steel factory, make steel out of bones, use the steel for planes and cannons, so the animals would be inside fighting wars. There might be some modernized metaphors in there, like paying the price and pain. In the end, the animals ridiculously pull it apart, which is the time-space view of the “six divisions of the karma wheel”. They build the world park atop the ruins, and then make a processing factory.  For the free market's total overthrow of socialism's historical heritage and political economy, my starting point was the concepts of Empire; it is globalization's changing of China's culture, economy, art and politics today. We have to reflect on what has already died in post-socialism, and what is still alive. We can't but ask where we are, where the world is. I want to use my works to recreate this process of collapse and rebirth.

徐：我对你的作品的体会就是要颠覆、破坏、或是批判一些东西。你能不能在这之外还进一步表现你的理想？

Xu: My understanding of your works is that there is a drive to subvert, destroy and critique things. Can you further express your ideals beyond this?

张：颠覆的工作在八十年代做的比较多，今天是建构，我谈的是崩溃之后建构、重生、在废墟上重建。八十年代当代艺术主要是和体制对抗，那个时候国家主要处在经济和政治的转型开放时期，问题集中在一个简单的二元对抗，今天在全球化背景下面对的问题远远不止是简单的政治问题所能涵盖的，今天制度本身也在变化，可能既是文化的修复，也是心灵的修复，可能在文化的基因里面有一些基因的重组，基因超乎我们想象的强大。我读黄仁宇的《万历十五年》，感觉晚明和今天是惊人的相似，包括经济的增长、世俗的纵欲和乱伦、道德的崩溃、政治的迷茫、知识分子丧失终极追问的东西。我正在制作一个动画电影《迷雾》，我会把藏传佛教里面万水千山的宗教状态用在今天物质文化社会里的对比上。我觉得中国文化里面有一种基因，有一种修复能力，具有现世感，这是一种世俗的恢复能力。

Zhang: I did a lot of subversion in the eighties. Now it is construction. I'm talking about construction after the collapse, rebirth, rebuilding atop the ruins. Contemporary art in the eighties was mostly clashing with the system. The nation was in a period of economic and political transformation, and the issue focused on a diametric clash. The problems we face against the backdrop of globalization cannot be covered by just political issues. Today, the system itself is changing. It may be both a restoration of culture and a restoration of the spirit. Maybe in the cultural genes there are some rearrangements, and genes are stronger than we imagined. After reading Huang Renyu's Fifteen Years of Emperor Wan Li, I felt that the late Ming is shockingly similar to today, including economic growth, indulgence and violation of social norms, the collapse of morality, political confusion and the loss of direction for intellectuals. I'm making an animated film entitled Dense Fog, where I will bring out the vast religious state of Tibetan Buddhism to compare it with today's materialist culture. I think that there is a gene in Chinese culture, a restorative ability, an ability to restore social norms.

徐：中国这个国度的自我修复能力还是非常强的。因为中国历史上这种大的变化，还是很多，不只这一次，比这个更激烈。从秦到汉也是巨大的，从汉到唐，从唐到宋，都有非常大的变化，但好多根本东西异常的坚强。

Xu: The self-restorative powers of China are very strong. There have been many such large changes in China's history, not just this time, and they have been more intensive than this time. The change from the Qin to the Han was also massive, and there have been great changes from the Han to the Tang, from the Tang to the Song, but much of the root stuff has persisted.

张：荷兰性学家高罗佩著有《中国古代房内考》，他通过考查中国古代的性文化，发现中国人的性文化是重和谐天道，是平衡的。中国的文明几千年没有崩溃，还在绵延，中国文化有着惊人的修复能力，这和在其它学科里研究所得到是相似的答案。

Zhang: In the Dutch sex scholar Robert H van Gulik's book  Sexual Life in Ancient China, through research of ancient China's sexual culture, discovered that China's sexual culture emphasizes harmony and natural law, and is balanced. Over several thousand years, Chinese civilization has not collapsed and continues on. Chinese culture has a scary restorative ability. This is similar to the research results of other fields.

徐：我们讲的四大文明，只有中国的文明在一直延续，其他文明都是中断的，中国没有，尽管若干次朝代的更变，但它有一些根本的东西没变，这是一个很值得思考的问题。这个关键的地方可能跟我们以农业，以血源为根本有关，在结构方面有很大的关系。就像一个家庭一样，好多时候兄弟之间会打架，会翻脸，但有外人侵入时，他们会一致对外。

Xu: Of the so-called four great civilizations, only China's civilization still carries on. All of the others were interrupted, but China's has not. Though there have been many changes with the various dynasties, there are many root aspects that remain unchanged. This is an issue well worth pondering. This key aspect may be related to our roots in agriculture and kinship, which is very important structurally. It is like a family, where brothers will often fight, but when an outsider invades, they stand together towards the outside.

张：这种情况最根本的还是文化的崩溃，大学是精神的殿堂，高校在今天能守住精神的很少，中国大学今天已经太多变成了公司，已不再代表精神的殿堂，这个是全球化改变所致。我前不久看到德国《时代周报》谈到研究一些中国的数据，他们得出一个结论：“中国在自信和毫无批判之间不得不进入全球化，世界在一点点的被中国化”。中国从劳动密集型加工到高端的信息产业都能做，而且成本极低，在21世纪中国最不缺的就是人才。中国对全球所具有的穿透力和爆炸力都是巨大的。德国学者的数据不是简单的得出反华或是亲华的结论。当代艺术也出现了这种情况，可能在中国文化界成了一个敏感的细胞，它反映经济的高速增长。当代艺术发展到一定时候，就和经济有紧密的关系，经济来认同它。今天可能有一种同步性。有一种自觉在里面，大家拥有物质以后，可能会超越肉身，去追求自由。这不是物质化轻易就能全洗掉的。文化的DNA是超出我们想象的绵延和强大。

Zhang: The root of this situation is the collapse of culture. Universities are temples of the spirit, and few higher learning institutions can hold on to the spirit. Too many universities in China today have become companies, and they no longer represent temples of the spirit. This is a result of changes from globalization. I recently read some figures about China from Der Spiegel: “China, with self confidence and lack of criticism must enter into globalization, and the world is being China-fied bit by bit.” China can do everything from labor-intensive production to high level information industry, and the costs are extremely low. What China lacks the least in the 21^st  century is talent. The penetrative and explosive force that China has in facing globalization is enormous. The German scholars' numbers are not just a simple pro or anti China stance. This situation has also emerged in contemporary art. This could be a very sensitive cell in Chinese cultural circles, one that reflects the high speed of economic growth. When contemporary art develops to a certain level, it becomes tightly intertwined with the economy, as the economy recognizes it. Today there is a simultaneous nature to it. There is a consciousness in there. Once everyone has materials, they might transcend the flesh and seek freedom. This isn't something that can be easily washed away by materialism. Cultural DNA is longer and stronger than we had imagined.

徐：当代艺术在这个社会中有它存在的特殊性，艺术对社会的关注，原来是纯粹为艺术而艺术，现在它是要介入到当代社会问题的讨论，要表达思想。当代艺术是政论，是入世，而且具有批判性。在北大做是很合适，它不只是一个艺术展，也是一个学术讨论，学术的一个碰撞和讨论。你要表现的东西，希望我们社会学，人类学等能够介入，一起来讨论你关心的问题。

Xu: Contemporary art in this society has it's own peculiarity. Art's focus on society used to be art for art's sake, but now it has entered into the debates about issues in contemporary society, and must express ideas. Contemporary art is a political discussion, engaged in the world, and it has a critical nature. It is appropriate to do it at Beijing University. It's not just an art exhibition, it is an academic debate, an academic clash and debate. What you want to present, I hope that sociology and anthropology get involved, to discuss together the issues you focus on.

原弓：看你的画，有时候会被带入到你的意境中去，好像是我们在考古现场刚刚揭开的时候，有一种考古的观念在里面。你的作品具有后现代主义的广泛特征，站在各种“现代”主义的对立面，形成悖理的风格，人们很容易被动地接受你表达的内容和表达方式。但对你的一系列作品《有新娘的动物世界》、《避孕套》、《水晶》、《暴雨将至》、《蚂蚁搬家》、《旅行》、《后窗》、《青山溪远》、《溃烂的山水》等进行宏观观察之后，就会发现你的作品确实是一种“建构”，是用实证主义进行的模型建构，就像用抽象的模型去解释世界，这样我们就不得不采用主动的方式，用后现代主义的原理去释读，以避免掉入你的“视觉陷阱”。

Yuan Gong: Looking at your paintings, sometimes I am pulled into your realm. It's like when we have just opened up an archaeological dig; there's a bit of the archaeological concept there. Your works are marked by the breadth of post-modernism, standing up against all kinds of modernist ideas. There is a kind of unreasonable style that leads people to passively accept the content and methods of your expression. But after doing macroscopic observations on your series of works such as Animal World with Bride, Condom, Crystal, The Coming Storm, Ants Moving House, Travel, Back Window, Green Mountain Stream in the Distance, and Festering Landscape, one realizes that your works are a form of “construct”, a construct modeled on empiricism, just like using an abstract model to explain the world. In this light, we have to use a proactive method, using a post-modern rationale to decode it and avoid falling into your “visual trap”.

张：我希望我的工作有一种视觉考古，希望后面的人在我的画里能得到一些信息。就是视觉编码，让后来的人能够去解码今天我们在这个巨变的时代中个人的精神痕迹。

Zhang: I hope that my work has a form of visual archaeology, and that future people will be able to gain information from my paintings. It is visual encoding, so that people of the future can decode the traces of the human spirit in this era of massive change.

徐：对当代问题的观察，对历史的反思，希望在我们展览里面有一个清晰的体现。每一个艺术家的展览都有一个明确的问题，解决或是提出问题。解决问题我们不指望，只需要指出一个思考问题的方向，或者是我们说的崇高一点，打开了一扇窗，了解人类自身的一扇窗。

Xu: I hope that in our exhibition there is a clear embodiment of the observations into contemporary issues and reflections on history. Each artist's exhibition has a clear issue to solve or present. We aren't concerned with the solutions to the problems, we just need a direction to ponder the issue, or something more lofty, to open a window, a window to understanding mankind.

张：这次我想要做一个Super-text，而不是一个Catalogue，这种文本有一种深度的理解和阐释，不是画册的概念。

Zhang: This time I want to make a Super-text, not a catalog. This kind of text has a deep understanding and explanation, beyond the concept of a catalog.

徐：图片可能都不是最重要的，通过讨论形而上的问题。原弓的想法特别好，要做一个系列的、持续的，只有这样影响才会扩大。费老提到的文化自觉，就是要重新寻找当代中国的坐标？

Xu: The images might not be the most important thing, through the discussions of abstract issues. Yuan Gong's idea is a great one, to do a series, a continuous one, which is the only way to expand the influence.  Might this cultural self-awareness that Old Fei talks about be a need to find the coordinates for contemporary China?

张：当代艺术本身就是具有社会学特征的，不只是美学和哲学的系统，需要更广泛的学科交叉才能产生新的知识和技术。

Zhang: Contemporary art is imbued with sociological traits. It is not just an aesthetic and philosophical system. There needs to be a meeting of broader fields to create new knowledge and techniques.

原弓：让艺术家在北大来做展览，不仅仅是借北大博物馆的空间和人文环境，还有跨学科的思考角度。我也希望在与各个领域的交流当中获得启发。我发现当代艺术家与社会其他精英有很大的隔膜，关键就是缺乏交流。因为缺乏传达，导致了某些作品只是在浅显的社会学及哲学层面徘徊，甚至是商业化模仿。我希望打开这扇沟通之门，在不同学科的交叉紊乱中寻找冲突的缘由，产生艺术创作的新动因；在讨论中发现矛盾之美，产生当代艺术发展的新机缘。让跨学科的知识渗透进来，发生作用。

Yuan Gong: Having artists exhibit at Beijing University is not just about using the space and cultural environment at the museum. There is also a multi-disciplinary conceptual perspective. I also hope to gain inspiration from exchanging with all kinds of fields. I've discovered that contemporary artist are quite separated from other social leaders, mostly they are lacking exchange. Because they are not being spread around, some works are stuck pacing about on the surface of sociology and philosophy, even imitating commercialization. I hope to open this door to communication, and seek the source of conflict through a chaotic intermingling of the various fields and create a new motive for artistic creation; to find the beauty of conflict in discussion, and create a new engine for the development of contemporary art. I want multidisciplinary knowledge to seep in and become useful.

徐：在北大做这个展览是一个很好的平台，在这里面，比较容易引起共鸣。

Xu: Beijing University is a great platform for an exhibition. Here it is easy to attract like-minded people.

张：不在空间的大小，而在精神的张力。伟大的艺术很神圣，是要让你跪下去的！其实古典精神能修复当代很多的疑难怪症，古典很祥和，当代太焦虑。我用蚂蚁和蜥蜴这种具有预言感的动物来表现人的共通性，我要的就是时间摧毁一切物质的过程中产生的变异，就像中国的社会，千军万马一个巨大的垃圾场，把死亡分解掉了再重生。死亡以后是烟云，它是美丽的，以前是动物，我现在回到人类的普遍方法，可能是历史的观察点，我可能用在我的画里面，有种藏传佛教灵魂和精神。这是我多年以前拍的骷髅照片，现在才有感觉做成作品，还是来自心里对问题的认知程度，可能心里的东西出来了，名字叫《白云溪山》，就像我画草莓一样，我把草莓画成像云烟、山水，把物质抽象化，转化成另外的世界，看我的骷髅可能是“空”的东西，可能看到时间的印记在里面。

Zhang: It's not in the size of the space, but in the expansive force of the spirit. Great art is a holy thing, something that makes you kneel down! The classical spirit can repair a lot of contemporary problems. The classical is very harmonious, while contemporary is too anxious. I use ominous animals such as ants and lizards to emphasize the shared aspects of man. What I want are the mutations produced by the destruction of the material through time. It's like Chinese society, a mighty trash heap disintegrating death and being reborn. After death there is smoke, which is beautiful. Before, it was animals, but now I am returning to mankind's universal methods. Maybe it is a historical observation point, maybe I use it in my images; there is a sort of Tibetan Buddhist spirit in there. This is a picture I took many years ago of a skeleton. It wasn't until now that I had a feel for making it into an artwork. It's about the psychological level of problem recognition. Maybe something came out of the heart. This is called White Cloud Mountain River. It's just like the way I paint strawberries, painting them to look like smoke and landscapes. I abstract the material, transform it into a different world. Looking at my skeleton, maybe it is “empty”, maybe you can see the marks of time inside.

徐：第一次看到你的蚂蚁的时候，我可能跟你的想法不一样，我觉得人观察蚂蚁仿佛就是有一种像蚂蚁的人在看人，和我们人看蚂蚁相似。人读不懂蚂蚁，或者是能读一部分，比如搬家，把食品拿回家，我们对它们的社会基本不了解。最简单的就是我站在高楼看路上的车和行人，其实也看不到，具体的只有抽象的点点……

Xu: I think that maybe I had a different idea the first time I saw your ants. I think that when man observes ants it is as if an ant-like man is observing man, just like when us people look at ants. People do not understand ants, or maybe they can read a bit into it, such as with moving house, carrying food to the home, we lack a basic understanding of their society. The simplest is for me to stand on a high building looking down on the cars and people; I can't really see them, just some abstract points...

张：高架桥下面全是川流不息的蚂蚁，车是“流动的棺材”……

Zhang: Below the bridge it is all an endless river of ants. Cars are “mobile coffins”...

徐：我从这里感觉到我们生活在当代，但对当代的陌生，有时候是存在的，也许当代人的生活就是无方向的，或者是集体失忆或是失去方向。我们对当代的思考，可以问好多的问题，同样，我们对当代的认识和对古代的认识差别不是很大，现在周围充满了不真实，看到发生的不一定是真实的，最典型的是媒体，我们看到表述的东西是一回事，实际的意义是完全的另一回事，在这样的情况下，我们对当代会有多少客观的认识？都是从蚂蚁和现实状况的相似性的角度来讲。

Xu: From here I get the feeling that we live in contemporary times, but this unfamiliarity with the times exists here and there. Maybe the contemporary life is without direction, or a collective loss of purpose or direction. Our thoughts towards contemporary times, we can ask a lot of questions, and in the same way, our understand towards contemporary times is not much different from our understanding of ancient times. Our surroundings are full of the unreal. What we see taking place is not necessarily real. The most typical case is the media. What we see depicted is one thing, but the real significance is something else altogether. In this situation, how much objective understanding of the current times do we really have? This is all from the perspective of similarities between ants and the real situation.

张：《暴雨将至》是我2006年的作品，画的是将下大雨，蚂蚁集体往上涌动。这和我当时读《万历十五年》的心境和思考有关，一个时代即将崩溃，那种悲悯的力量，让我清醒。

Zhang: The Coming Storm is a work I made in 2006. In the painting, it is about to rain hard, and the ants are flowing collectively to higher ground. This is connected to the state of mind I was in when I read Fifteen Years of Emperor Wan Li; an era was about to collapse. That tragic power was sobering.

徐：在汉民族的生死观里，有一句话叫“视死如生”，在这样的一个观念背景下面，我们有一个厚葬的习俗，把死人生前用的各种物品全一起埋葬。欧洲也好，中国也好，因为宗教而留下了大量的艺术品。还有就是人对死的观念，古人认为死只是到了另外一个世界，叫他界。从此岸到彼岸，衣食住行都还需要，所以会有军队和文武百官跟着走，形成我们现在看到古墓的图景。

Xu: In Han Chinese views towards life and death, there is a saying, “view death as birth”. Under such a view, we have a custom of elaborate funerary rites, burying the deceased with all kinds of objects from his life. Be it Europe or China, it is because of religion that there are many works of art left behind. And then there are people's views towards death. The ancients believed that death was just a passage to another world, called other world. From this cost to another coast, there is still a need for food, clothing, shelter and transport, so there will be an army and bureaucracy coming along, which formed into the image of the ancient tombs we have seen.

张：在后面我要做的作品是把工厂拆成一片废墟，然后把工厂装修成花园，再把工厂重建，这是肉身的概念，这房子也是肉身，蚂蚁成了万物主宰者。有其它动物建成的流水线，造出坦克大炮来互相残杀，再拉回钢厂里面去炼钢，一切都在循环之中。

Zhang: What I want to do later is dismantle a factory and turn it into ruins, then reconstruct the factory as a park, then rebuild the factory. This is a carnal concept; this building is flesh, and ants have become the lords of all things. There will be a production line made of other animals, making tanks and cannons to massacre each other, then pull them back into the factory to smelt steel. Everything is in the cycle.

原弓：你所提到的工厂—废墟—花园—重建工厂、战争以及互相残杀这些过程，从某种意义上讲，这种作为肉身概念的战争，俨然成为社会进化的动因，使法治化程度较高的社会把低法治能力的社会淘汰或重新整合。

Yuan Gong: These processes you're talking about, factory – ruins – park – rebuilt factory, war and mutual killings, in a sense, these carnal concept wars end up being the catalysts for societal evolution. They lead societies with a high level of rule of law to push aside or reorganize societies with lower abilities in rule of law.

徐：这种循环在古代有很多象征意义，一个是知了，知了过了夏季，冬天就进到土里面去了，第二年春天又出来，夏天开始鸣叫，秋天又入土了，它就是一个轮回的过程。汉代的时候有玉的知了放在嘴里，这就是一个轮回。还有蚕和蛇，它们的生长过程也是一个轮回。

Xu: This kind of cycle has many meanings in ancient times. One is the cicada. After summer, the cicada digs into the earth for the winter, and reemerges for spring the next year. It begins its calls in the summer, and goes back into the ground in the fall. It is a cyclical process. In the Han Dynasty, people would put a jade cicada in a person's mouth – this is a cycle. There is also the silkworm and the snake. Their growth stages are also cycles.

张：我早期画的避孕套系列里有金鱼。后来德国评论家问是不是鱼有多子的含义，我感觉性是一种又美好，又痛苦的东西，它是矛盾的统一体。今天我就是通过动物生命和死亡来贯穿画面。

Zhang: There were carp in my early Condom series. Later, a German critic asked if the carp stood for multiple children. I think that sex is both beautiful and painful, a unified embodiment of contradiction. Today I am using the life and death of animals to penetrate the piece.

徐：古人可能跟你观察的角度差不多，他对知了、蛇、蚕的观察，在这里面得到了对人自身生命的一种感悟，把它作为寄托，然后制作这些东西。以后我们把你的有关古代象征意义的东西拿来比较看看。

Xu: The ancients might have had a similar perspective. Observation of the cicada, snake and silkworm has given us insights into human life, and we have trusted in this and made this with it. Later, we'll take out your stuff on ancient symbolism and compare it.

张：我还有一层含义，比如霉变的一个蛋糕，文学性成为了一个欺骗的视觉陷阱，别人问我是不是隐喻一个社会，其实我想说的是时间。可能表征它有这个指向，可能对应了物质上的一种心理感应。比如我们在公园看蚂蚁，看动物的分解，就像看天葬一样。关键是你在图像的下面看到了什么？

Zhang: There's also another level, like with a moldy cake, the literary aspect has become a visual trap used to trick people. People ask me if I'm making allegories about society, but what I want to talk about is time. Maybe there is this guide to representing it, and maybe it paralleled some material psychological response. For instance, if we are in the park watching ants, watching the dismemberment of animals is like watching a sky burial. What matters is what do you see beneath the image?

徐：绘画语言方面，你的作品非常好，看草莓的霉变过程，很有震撼力。但架上绘画看起来就有点脏，脏也许对人的视觉冲击力会更大。比如我们看北京的黄沙天气就会有冲击力。

Xu:  In terms of painting language, your works are very good. The molding process of strawberries is quite moving. But the painting on the canvas seems a bit dirty, and maybe this dirtiness makes it more visually striking. For example, the sight of the yellow dust skies over Beijing strikes us.

张：我下一个片子可能比这还要重，我敬仰那种精神和灵魂的召唤。在城市当中，在现代化的道路当中，我们如何平衡精神和物质的关系？有很多的冲突和矛盾。

Zhang: My next film could be heavier than this. I venerate the call of the spirit and soul. In the city, in the middle of the modernized roads, how do we find balance in the relationship between the spiritual and the material? There is a lot of conflict and cotradiction.

原弓：物质的追求最终就是迷茫。作品中草莓霉变的过程跟我们追求的基本上是一样的。你所提到的那种循环其内在动机是追求永恒和不朽，抗拒流变，因此它所表达的是本质的世界。然而循环观是在转变中保持同一永恒的可能性，你所阐述的在物质层面上来说，其实就是“变是永恒的不变”。我们经验中的变化被解释成那些永恒原理。这样一来，看似复杂的道理也就变成简单的排列和组合，事件的时间性和历史性丧失了它们的基础性意义，从而使我们的眼光投向了精神。

Yuan Gong: Material pursuits always end in perplexity. The molding process of the strawberries in the piece is basically the same as what we are pursuing. The internal mechanism of the cycle you mentioned is the quest for permanence and resistance to movement and change. So what it expresses is the essential world. The cyclical view holds out the possibility of permanence within change. What you described, on the material level is “change is permanent and unchanging”. The changes we have experienced have been explained as the principles of that permanence. In this way, what once seemed to be complex reasoning becomes simple ordering and arrangement. The timeliness and the historical nature of events have caused them to lose their fundamental significance, sending our sights over to the spirit.

徐：当人的基本生存条件得到满足以后，人还要干什么？

Xu: When man satisfies his basic survival needs, what else can he do?

张：全面物质化会崩溃，会有代价的！中国的现代化代价很高。

Zhang: Total materialism will collapse, at a cost! The price of China's modernization is high.

徐：你要去西藏，我特别推荐去萨迦寺，那里的废墟很有震撼力。

Xu: You want to go to Tibet; I highly recommend that you go to Lhaka Monastery. The ruins there are quite moving.

张：我要去拍“晒佛节”，在我的动画电影语言中我会用动画来还原人类的精神追求，用交互感应的镜头来置换现实和历史的片段。我的语言源点不是来自于西方，我受过西方的影响，能融和其中。比如死亡，我可能从象征主义，或者是早期的现代主义文学，如卡夫卡、波德莱尔的未来美学来表现，更多的是来自于隋、唐、宋时期的四川大足安岳石刻，它那种现世宗教感，宗教的世俗化表现，人神共处的和谐世界。这种艺术语言的感染力，我可能最终是借用了这些语言元素，“屋漏痕”，我就在时间里面读到了千年的信息。我看到的唐卡，看到蚂蚁把虫子分解的一样，那就是千年不变，蛋糕也好，我早期画避孕套、春宫画。很多人说这是色情，其实是语言的悖论、迷宫，我一直在追问千年时间的痕迹。我今天谈到现代化的代价，比如物欲对人的摧毁，对知识分子信仰的改变，对个人信仰的蚕食。你会对文化有一个很有力的，坚定的判断。该建构什么？该批判什么？我试图做一个跨文化的偷渡者……

Zhang: I want to take pictures of the “sunning of the Buddha”. In my cartoon cinematic language I will use animation to restore man's spiritual pursuits, and I will use a reflexive lens to replace the clips of reality and history. My linguistic starting point is not from the west; I've been influenced by the west and I can get by in it. With death, for example, I might use symbolism or early modernist literature such as Kafka or Baudelaire, with his future aestheticism, to express it, but it comes more from the Dazu rock carvings from the Sui, Tang and Song Dynasties in Sichuan. That feeling of religions disgrace, of the vulgarization of religion, man and spirit living together in a harmonious world. That contagious force of art, I might in the end use those kinds of linguistic elements. “Marks of a leaky roof”; within time I just read the information of a thousand years. The thanka's I've seen and the dismemberment of other bugs by ants is all the same, which is that there is no change in a thousand years. Cakes too. In the early days I painted condoms and Chines pornographic pictures. People said that it was perverted, but it was linguistic dogma, a labyrinth, I have always been seeking the traces of a millennium in time. Today I spoke of the price of modernization, such as how material desire destroys man, changes the beliefs of intellectuals and swallows up peoples' beliefs. You will have a powerful and steadfast take on culture. What should we construct? What should we criticize? I'm trying to be a cross-cultural stowaway...

徐：你的感觉是对的，在自然时间面前，人就是蚂蚁。你怎样来表现时间，的确是很大的一个话题，什么都比不过时间。

Xu: Your feeling is correct. In the face of natural time, man is but an ant. However you express time, it is a very big theme. Nothing compares with time.

张：这几年我思考的全球化，中国现代化的代价及其反思，我发现我可以用死亡与生命来链接不同的结点，它是非逻辑性的，非理性的，它的暗线是有逻辑的，表征可能呈现的是乱码符号，在乱码里面有很多独特编码，在这些不同个案里，怎么用微观视点建构语言的世界。

Zhang: In these past few years I've been thinking and rethinking  about globalization, Chinese modernization and its price. I discovered that I can use death and life to link up the different points. It is illogical, unreasonable, but its hidden clues are logical. What they indicate may present as jumbled code, and in that jumbled code there are a lot of unique codes. In these different cases, it is about how to use a microscopic viewpoint to construct a linguistic world.

原弓：小涛做当代艺术是有逻辑性的，一般的艺术家往往是靠直觉，而他是在同时推导或证明两个互相矛盾的命题，从悖谬中寻找真理。

Yuan Gong: Xiaotao's contemporary art is logical. Most artists follow intuition, but he is simultaneously inferring or proving two mutually contradictory propositions, seeking the absolute truth through the absurdity.

徐：什么时候去参加我们墓葬的发掘，我们现在挖的墓大概是公元前一千年左右，从现在的地面下去十几米，埋得很深。

Xu: You should come take part in our tomb excavations some time. The tomb we're digging now is from about 1000 years ago. It is over ten meters below the surface, buried very deep.

张：好啊，我很有兴趣！

Zhang: Great, I'm very interested!

徐：同样的话题，我们可以用不同的表现形式来表达。不一定直接表现在你的作品里面，内容能感觉的到。

Xu: For the same topic, we can use different forms of expression. It doesn't have to be directly expressed in your works; the content can be felt.

张：今天在博物馆看到的藏传佛教高僧头盖骨上鑲的佛像，震撼人心！

Zhang: The Tibetan skull bowl I saw today that was inscribed with a Buddha image was very moving!

原弓：这是一种智慧，当一个人追求物质到极致的时候，最终把物质转化成精神。藏人也许就是掌握了这种密码，你死了以后，你所有的理想都可能向你相反的方向发展。假设死亡是你拥有物质的最高点时，如果你够机智的话，一下把物质转化成精神的东西，这就是大成就。像柏拉图说的：肉身不要被重复的肉身化是最好的，而是将肉身直接留在精神的境界。假如我们要真正地保持不朽，仅仅是肉身的循环和再循环是不行的，真正要紧的是坚守住没有任何流变的精神本体。世界充满流变，它所遵循的铁律在精神层面的不变，支配着变化着的世界。

Yuan Gong: This is a type of wisdom. When someone has pursued the material to the greatest extreme, the material is transformed into spirit. The Tibetans may have grasped onto this code. After you die, all of your ideals could develop in the opposite direction from you. If death were to become the high point of material possession, if you're smart enough, to be able to change material into spiritual stuff in an instant would be a huge achievement. As Plato said, flesh should not be repeatedly incarnated, instead it should be left behind in the spiritual world. If we really want to maintain permanence, it is only the cycling and recycling of the flesh that is no good. What is truly urgent is maintaining an unchanging spiritual being. The world is full of change. The ordered unchanging spiritual level is allocated with a changing world.

徐：还有一种现象跟这个话题有很大的关系，比如汉代的时候有一种金缕玉衣，人死了以后全身用玉做的衣服裹起来，七窍都用玉，其实是希望它不朽，但这是徒劳的。当玉衣被揭开的时候，里面就是白骨。人有对自己认识不清楚的时候。我们挖出来时，肉身都不存在了，像玉或其他的高级艺术品都完好无损。

Xu: There's another phenomenon that is related to this topic. In the Han Dynasty there was a type of garment made of jade sewn in golden thread. When a person died they would be wrapped up completely in this jade garment, with all of the facial features covered in jade. This was in hopes that they would not decay, but it was futile. When the jade clothing is removed, it is just white bones inside. People have times when they are unclear in their recognition of themselves. When we dig, the flesh no longer exists, but the high art objects such as the jade are in mint condition.

原弓：我明年还会与陕西博物馆和北大文博学院合作进行一个活动，某种程度会产生一些影响。现在我们皇家墓室里面的壁画，以前在修复保存方面还存在很多的问题，大量的国宝就像草莓一样在霉变。我希望让当代艺术家去参与其中一些工作，来拯救古代的艺术，而不是让企业出钱。同时也要拍成纪录片，对这个事件做一个记录。过去，有不少名门望族的后代将家族收藏低价折售给他人，同时没有获得很好的保护。因此，每个人都应该在适当的时候将自己的收藏捐给合适的机构，让这些艺术品能够很好的保存下去。在民间是如此；对国家而言，也需要民间、尤其是艺术家来保护古代文化的传承。你相信你的儿子，但你不一定能够相信你的孙子和他们的后代会代代传承。

Yuan Gong: Next year I am going to hold an event with the Shaanxi Museum and the Beijing University Antiquities Institute. It will create some influence in a way. With some of the frescoes in the imperial family tombs, there were some problems with earlier restoration and preservation work, and many national treasures are molding away like those strawberries. I want to have contemporary artists take part in some of this work, to save ancient art, rather than having businessmen pay for it. I also want to shoot a documentary of it, to make a record of this. In the past, a lot of prestigious families sold off their family collections for a low price, and they weren't preserved well. For this reason, at the right time, everyone should donate their collections to the proper organizations at an appropriate time, so that these works of art can be preserved well. Among the people it's like this – the nation needs folk-based stuff, especially for artists to protect their ancient cultural inheritance. You can trust your son, but you can't necessarily trust that your grandsons and their offspring will continue to pass it down the generations.

张：我们如何看待自己的传统，是尊重还是漠然？我把蛋糕，草莓放在里面，都是物质，都朽了，“尘归尘，土归土”。物质是这个时代的表征。

Zhang: How do we view our own traditions, with respect or indifference? I put the cake and the strawberries in there. They're all material, and they have all decayed, “ashes to ashes, dust to dust”. Material objects are the markers of this era.

徐：从好多角度来讲都有很多的意义，最简单的意义就是拯救我们自己的遗产。由艺术家来做比企业家做，更有社会意义。

Xu: There are a lot of different meanings from many different perspectives. The simplest meaning is that we are saving our own heritage. It would have a lot more social significance if it was done by artists rather than businessmen.

徐：希望通过这个过程自己得到学习。

Xu: I hope that I can learn through this process.

俆：从历史上看这是唯一的出路，多少收藏家到后面东西全都没了。

Xu: Looking through history, this is the only way out. Many collectors ended up with nothing.

徐：我们讨论的是普遍的人类的话题，我希望通过这样的一个形式，去认识人本身的时候，不要有时间和空间的界限，也不要有西方、东方、古代、现代的界限。实际上一百年以后，我们当代的就成为历史。你刚说的视觉考古，两百年以后看张小涛的作品，它就是对当代的一种解读。

Xu: What we're discussing are universal human topics. I hope that through a form like this, when we go off to know the essence of man, there shouldn't be temporal or spacial bounds, nor should there be boundaries between the west, the east, ancient or modern. In fact, a year from now, our contemporary will become history. You were talking about visual archaeology. In two hundred years, looking at Zhang Xiaotao's works will be a sort of decoding.

张：符号是短暂的时尚，时间的绵延更有意义。

Zhang: Icons are temporary fashions. The extension of time is more interesting.

原弓：时间就是权力 这对于一切文化形态的时间观而言都是正确的。生存的解释权看起来像是由我们自己支配，其实时间支配着所有的人。现在我发觉好多单独做符号的艺术家，时间正在吞噬他们的年轮和才华，已经失去艺术追求的根本，实际就像做广告。他们会有个人效益，但没有太大的社会意义。

Yuan Gong: Time is power. This is correct in terms of all of the time views of all cultural forms. The right to explain existence is something we ourselves assign. Actually, time assigns all people. I've come to discover a lot of artists who do just icons, and time is currently swallowing their growth and talent. They have already lost the roots of artistic pursuit, and are really just doing advertising. They will have personal gain, but there's not a whole lot of social significance.

徐：我看到你的文章里面也谈到了对798的批评，现在商业气太重了。

Xu: I've seen your criticisms of the 798 Art District in your articles, about how heavy the commercial atmosphere is getting.

原弓：寻找符号容易，要完善一个自己的思想体系不是一件容易事。

Yuan Gong: It is easy to search for icons, but it's no easy task to create your own conceptual system.

徐：不用符号也对，所有的东西都是有连接的，脱离自身的系统，单独的一个符号，是一个很片面的东西。我们做考古也是这样，我们捡到一个很碎的陶片、一个古器、一个石器，我们马上要判断它的年代和制作的工匠，因为不同的文化之间陶片的存在形式是不一样的，那么这个时代的民族都可能要在这里面阅读，所有的东西看起来都没有关联，实际上综合起来是反映了一个整体。我们说图像的考古实际上也是这样的，就是看东西。它跟历史学不一样，历史学是读文献，考古是读实物。

Xu: It's right to not use icons. Everything is linked together. When it leaves its system, just a solitary symbol, it becomes fragmentary. It's like this with our archaeology. When we find a broken piece of pottery, an old tool or a piece of stone, we want to immediately figure out its era and its craftsmanship, because the forms that different pottery pieces from different cultures exist in is different. When peoples of today want to read into this, nothing seems to be related, but when you bring it all together it reflects a unified whole. When we talk about visual archaeology, it is the same, just looking at stuff. It's different from the study of history. In history, you're reading literature, but in archaeology you're reading objects.

原弓：考古学主要是研究过去的社会，没有社会学，你是做不了考古的，然后你在做考古的过程中，一定会牵扯到古代哲学，包括一些心理学的问题，考古是一个很大的学科，涉及到很多跨学科、跨文化的领域。这有点像当代艺术的做学问。不同的学科理论事实上是相互补充的，通过对他们加以综合，就能全面解释社会现象。

Yuan Gong: Archaeology is basically the study of past societies. Without sociology, you can't do archaeology. And when you do archaeology you will definitely touch philosophy and even some psychological issues. Archaeology is a massive field. It touches on a lot of multidisciplinary, multicultural realms. This is a lot like contemporary art doing academics. Theories from different fields supplement each other. Through adding and synthesizing them, you can get a full explanation of social phenomena.

徐：考古学与当代艺术有一个共性的认识，当代艺术圈很小，考古也是这样。还有一个就是社会对这个学科的误解，他们认为考古就是挖宝，考古肯定不缺钱，这是一个误解，然后对当代艺术的误解，认为脱光衣服在个地方拍照片就是当代艺术。这些是公众对学科的误解。

Xu: Archaeology and contemporary art have a shared recognition of each other. The contemporary art circle is very small, and so is archaeology. There is also society's misunderstanding of this field. They  think we're just digging for treasure, so that archaeology couldn't ever be short on money. This is a misunderstanding. As for misunderstandings about contemporary art, they think that getting naked and taking pictures everywhere is contemporary art. This is how the masses misunderstand different fields.

原弓：我要把这两边被误读的朋友联系起来，其实古代很当代，当代也很古代。

Yuan Gong: I want to bring the misunderstood friends from two sides. The ancient is the contemporary, and the contemporary is the ancient.

张：我最近在想一个人类的普遍经验，抛开宗教、政治、经济、文化，单一学科的观点是不是有一个最恒定的价值观？

Zhang: I've recently been thinking about a universal human experience. Is there a constant values system removed from religion, politics, economics, culture and unitary academic views?

原弓：它肯定是很单纯的，很简单的，它终极的道理是一样的。

Yuan Gong: It is definitely very pure, very simple. It's ultimate reasoning is the same.

徐：你们关注当代社会，关注人。其实考古也是关注人，东西说的也是人，东西只是一个媒介，我们要思考的是它后面的东西。有形的东西是桥梁，你们是通过作品的语言要表达什么东西。我们是通过这个东西去发现东西，这个东西对人的终极关怀的对象的两个学科，也是一直的，有这样一个共性，沟通起来应该是没有障碍的，所以一个考古学，一个当代艺术能够放在一起来考虑。

Xu: You guys focus on contemporary society, focus on people. Archaeology focuses on people too. People are what objects speak of, and what we want to ponder is what is behind them. Things with form are a bridge. You guys use the language of an artwork to express things. We use these things to discover things. These two fields, which ultimately focus on human sentiment, are the same. They have shared aspects, and should be able to communicate without barriers. So we can consider archaeology and contemporary art together.

张：我们以前有一个展览叫《未来考古学》，有点福柯的知识考古学的概念。未来的考古，我觉得相同的都是在找一个密码，你们是在找古典社会的密码，过去的密码，我们是找今天的密码，这两者之间其实是有互动和联系的，是相当高端的。您谈到的头骨上有画痕，这些东西就是高端的密码。

Zhang: We once had an exhibition called Future Archaeology. It had a bit of Foucault's concept of the archaeology of knowledge. Future archaeology, I think it's the same in that it is searching for a code. You guys are looking for the codes to classical society, codes of the past. We are looking for the codes of today. These two things link and feed off each other, and it's on a high level. With the images scratched into a skull, that's a high level code.

徐：我们现在是在做一个拼图，找若干历史的碎片，由于时间的关系已是乱七八糟，我们再一点一点把它的位置摆好，可能永远也拼不齐了，能拼一点是一点，能认识一点是一点。

Xu: Now we are making a collage, with fragments of many histories together. Since the temporal relationships are already mixed all up, if we just slightly adjust the positioning, things will never be sorted out. If a bit can be arranged, then we make do with that, and if we can recognize a few things, we'll have to make do with that.

张：我觉得后来的系统会连起来，自然会重组一个成系统，因为细胞里面有普遍性，所以我们可以通过DNA鉴定一个人的基本数据信息，包括人类历史，不可能把每一个东西都拿来考古。永远是有价值的，是结点上的，是有典型性的，什么样的物件最能代表有重大启发的那段历史，才会拿来考古。吕澎老师的《２０世纪中国艺术史》引起学术界的关注和争论，很多人说当代艺术史这么短，你就能够下结论了吗？其实“一切历史都是当代史”，都是在运动和变化当中，我们现在的版本，以后回来修正它。你现在不做，可能会损失很多信息，先是一个拼图，可能后来这个系统自然会连成一个程序。现在看不清楚，十年以后它就自然有联系了，时间会让碎片之间自然形成它的逻辑，上下文的重组和变化。

Zhang: I think that a future system will be able to link things together. It will naturally come together to form a system, because there is universality in the cells, so we can use DNA to evaluate a person's basic information, including with human history. We cannot take everything into archaeology. Only something that will always be valuable, that is in the points,  has typical traits, only certain objects can really represent that point in history that had such huge inspiration, and can be brought out into archaeology. Lu Peng's History of 20^th Century Chinese Art brought a lot of academic attention and controversy. A lot of people were asking, with such a short history of contemporary art, can you make conclusions about it? “All history is contemporary history”, everything is in the midst of movement and change; our current edition, we will come back later to revise it. If you don't do it now, maybe a lot of information will be lost. Now it is a collage, but maybe the later system will naturally link it up into a program. You can't see it clearly now, but in ten years it will be naturally connected. Time will cause the fragments to naturally form their own logic, the rearrangement and change of the context.

徐：这是一个方面，在我们认知当代的时候，是反观我们自身，是自身能力的一种限制，过去我们做考古的人觉得考古学的力量很大，古代的问题，都能去把握它，解决它，讨论它，实际上是不可能的，人的认识是永远有缺陷的，这种局限性还没有被清醒的认识。毛泽东时代是人定胜天，自欺欺人，是开玩笑。人在这些面前永远是很弱的，我觉得是蚂蚁，包括在知识面前也是蚂蚁。

Xu: This is one side of it. When we recognize the contemporary, we are looking back on ourselves. It is a limitation on our own abilities. In the past, archaeologists thought that archaeology was very powerful. We could get a grasp of ancient problems, solve them and discuss them, but none of this is really possible. People's recognition is always limited, and this limitation has never been clearly recognized. The era of Mao Zedong was when people were masters of their own fate, people deceived themselves. It was a joke. People are always weak in the face of these. I think they're ants, including in the face of knowledge, they are ants.

张：达赖喇嘛在东京做法事时说：“人再苦的时候想一想蚂蚁的负重是它身体的多少倍？”这种类比让你看到人类自身的局限，就像看浩瀚星空一样，感觉个体的渺小，不复存在。

Zhang: While holding mass in Tokyo, the Dalai Lama said, “now matter how much people suffer, think about how heavy the ant's burden is compared to his weight.” This kind of comparison makes you think about the limitations of man. It is like looking into the vastness of outer space. You feel your own minuteness, like you no longer exist.

徐：当我们跟社会学，美学，哲学这些交流的时候，也都是相通的。所以怎样把北大这种多学科的资源以当代艺术为结合点，多学科集中起来，然后再散发出去。

Xu: When we exchange with sociology, aesthetics and philosophy, we are all interlinked. So now it's about how we can link up these multidisciplinary resources at Beijing University through contemporary art, to collect the various disciplines and then send them out.

张:这个展览将是我明年个展《迷雾》的辅助解码器。想做一个超级文本，比如考古学的、宗教学的、心理学的，包括藏传佛教和心理学的关系，这种跨学科可能会成为我的展览的一个很重要的证明。我时常反思自己从一个小的环境里一步一步走到今天，到今天国际化交流。我对文化，对世界，对全球化的理解，这当中真是万水千山的历程。这种积累，一般的艺术家无法调和这种矛盾和背景。这对我来说是巨大的挑战！

Zhang: This exhibition will assist me as a decoding device for next year's Dense Fog. I want to make a super text, with archaeology, religion, psychology, including the relationship between Tibetan Buddhism and psychology. This multidisciplinary presence may become an important testament for my exhibition. I often think about myself and how I came out step by step from a small environment to today, to today's international cultural exchange. My understanding towards culture, towards the world, towards globalization, there's really a long path behind this. This kind of accumulation, most artists would be unable to harmonize this kind of contradiction and background. This is a huge challenge for me!

徐：是文脉的延续。我跟你的经历很相似，也有两次溺水经历。而且有一次在挖墓的时候被埋了，完全就是死掉了，你是有意识的挣扎，我是无意识的挣扎。

Xu: This is the continuation of the context. My experience is a lot like yours. I've been through drowning twice. There was one time when I got buried while digging a tomb. I was totally dead. You consciously struggled, I unconsciously struggled.

张：我躺在岸边，我发现所有的人都飘起来了，那一瞬间我感觉自己就像人们描述灵魂出来的样子，我躺在沙滩上，身体是很轻很软的感觉……

Zhang: I laid on the shore, and I realized that everyone floated. In that instant I felt just like people had described the soul leaving the body. I laid on the beach, and my body felt light and soft...

徐：经历了生死就会对生命的无常有体会，就我自己来讲知道了生命的可贵，过好每一天才是最重要。我每天都考虑怎样把明天的事做好。因为无常，你有一个远大的计划，考虑十年以后要做什么，我没有。这个现实社会丑陋的东西很多，怎样过好我们想过的生活？那段死的经历对我的影响特别大，包括对我的心里的影响。

Xu: Having experienced life and death, you come to understand the impermanence of life. For me, I came to know the preciousness of life. Living the everyday is all that matters. Every day I think about how to do things well tomorrow. Since it is impermanent, you have a long-term plan, and think about what you want to do in ten years, but I don't.  There are a lot of ugly things in society, so how do we live the lives we want? The experience of death had a huge influence on me, including my psychology.

原弓：你们是意外，我是自然。我有一种疾病，是这次去了西藏我才搞清楚。这个病从我30岁开始的，如果今天有很紧张的事，或者我这一天特别累，晚上我睡觉的时候，会突然休克，那一刻我是怎样都动不了，人是半睡，但脑子清醒。这是一个疾病，它有一种很痛苦，但它又有一种对立的，有时候睡着以后，我能飞，想飞多高就多高，我可以

编辑：admin