时间：2016年7月21日

方式：笔谈
 

杜曦云：你认为生活在当代就是“当代人”吗？

张大力：这要看用什么尺度来衡量。如果“当代人”只是一种物理和时间概念，那所有活在当代的人都是“当代人。如果要从精神角度和知识储备来观察，未必所有人都是“当代人”。

我们强调“当代”是想强调文明的经纬线，是强调存在于“当代人”身上的一种特别的思想和品格。这种思想不同于以往，是站在当下的知识结构中能做出正确的判断和认知，否则这个活在当代的人就是堆腐物。

民工雕塑(汉白玉)

105X47X102cm  2016年

Migrant worker sculpture(whitemarble)

105X47X102cm 2016

杜曦云：你认为什么是“当代艺术”？有“伪当代艺术”吗？

张大力：“当代艺术”就是“当代人”的思想成果。所谓“伪当代艺术”就是不具备这种观察能力和品行，无法和当代对话。

中国的“当代艺术，”一般可理解为在压力下生存的艺术，因此艺术家的观点和态度很重要，也就是思想的底线。我不认为这些精神层面的东西能用技术来解决。由于市场的需要，这些年来，经过包装，一些和权力同呼吸或迎合市场的艺术产品，因为使用了当代艺术的形式，而统统称之为“当代艺术”，这有悖于当代艺术的真正本质，也模糊了人们的视线。压力和反抗是无法伪装的，一个人为什么非要做“当代艺术家”呢，完全没有必要，其实坚持传统也是很好的选择。

竹子（10）

亚麻布蓝晒100x80cm

2016年8月29日

Bamboo(10)

Cyanotype on canvas

100x80cm2016.8.29

杜曦云：你认为什么是“中国当代艺术”？“中国当代艺术”在中国社会的作用是什么？

张大力：纵观“中国当代艺术”的发展史，我们能特别清楚的观察到，很突出的一个特点就是：“中国当代艺术”其实就是一种反抗的艺术，这种艺术一开始就没得到过恩宠和好脸色，从地下转到地上，极尽艰难。从1990年代末以来，因为资本和市场的推进，才使得当代艺术普及化和被接受，但这并不等于当代艺术的思想和精神也被接受了。在被权力改造和市场的包装下，当代艺术的概念被偷梁换柱了，也更复杂了，有时在人们的概念里存粹就是一种技术和表现手法。我个人理解，当代艺术和当代思想一样，永远在批判的道路上前行，是荒野的狼群，是不可能得到羊和羊的主人喜欢的。

杜曦云：你认为当代艺术家需要有基本立场吗？如果有，是什么样的基本立场？立场偏离或丧失后，会有什么后果？

张大力：我不相信没有立场的当代艺术家会创作出有价值的艺术作品。一个艺术家必需有能够分辨善恶的基本立场和价值判断，艺术创作是思想的体现也是人性的体现，如果没有人性的恻隐和大爱，只想着“学会文武艺，货与帝王家”，那最终也就是个趋炎附势的匠人和投机者。当代艺术就是反抗的艺术，没有立场的结果就只能拿利益来判断自己的方向，变立场为利场。

松树(27)

亚麻布蓝晒 122X152cm

2016年5月10日

Pine(27)

Cyanotype on canvas 122X152cm

2016.5.10

杜曦云：你认为你坚守住了某些基本立场吗？生存是具体而微的、肉身是贪婪恐惧的，你怎么面对这些诱惑和压力？

张大力：我不放弃诱惑，这是我需要的。生存本身有其复杂性，人性更复杂，在这场复杂艰难的博弈中，我最大的立场就是生而为人的独立性。

杜曦云：艺术需要直觉感悟，直觉感悟非常复杂，常常是难以言说的，似乎越模糊、多义、含混，“艺术性”越高。但你的很多作品都是相当简洁的，为什么这样做？

张大力：我觉得好的作品都有共性，不会拒人以千里之外。艺术最终还是给人看的，艺术家要和别人交流分享、共同体悟，那为什么非得要为难别人呢。这世界有什么能说不清楚的吗？是不是越说不清楚越好？

我认为艺术创作就是要把说不清楚的事情或概念说清楚，就是要说出大多数人的心声，就是知音越多越好。当然这不是世俗化和民粹化，而是用一种简洁概括复杂，用一句话说出真理，是一种直指人心的洞见。我要求自己在创作中秉承这种风格，而不是故弄玄虚把简单的事情复杂化。《拆》就是拆本身，《种族》就是身体的翻制，《第二历史》就是将思想简化成两张对比的图片，使大家一目了然，但也同时揭示了背后的复杂性。我反对将世界复杂、模糊化，所谓知识就是为了简化和廓清世界的，那为什么学习了知识还要反其道而行之呢。

杜曦云：你的作品形式简洁，但观念性非常强。有相当知识储备的人，更能感受到作品的丰富内涵。艺术和感性魅力有天然的紧密关联，你怎么看你的立场、观念和你的表达方式的关系？

张大力：这些实际上也很简单，也是互通的：有正确的立场就有鲜明的观念，有鲜明的观念就会找到简洁的表达方式。每一种观念，都有一种相对应的最佳表达方式，或者在你这里它是一种最佳的方式，这和一个人的行事风格、价值判断有很大的关系。人生苦短，我必须在有限的时间里告诉别人我的所思所想。差不多在大学二年级时，我已经掌握了这种转换方式。在创作的过程中我一般是感性的，但在思考的过程中我尽量偏向理性。

松树(25)

亚麻布蓝晒 100X146cm

2016年5月10日

Pine(25)

Cyanotype on canvas 100X146cm

2016.5.10

杜曦云：大浪淘沙，如今，很多和你同龄的艺术名家，在迎合强权和市场中，把自己扭曲的面目全非，或严重透支后明显萧条，你怎么看？

张大力：每个人的历史都是自己书写的，你追求什么就会变成什么样的人。我不反对市场，但我知道市场并非我的终极目标。金钱能让人富有，但不一定会让人更聪明，很多人在追求富贵的过程中忘记了自己的使命。这些也许都再正常不过了，这是人性的弱点。

杜曦云：谈谈你近期的作品吧？

张大力：我正在做两组作品：一组是“蓝晒”、一组是汉白玉雕塑。

我从2009年开始研究“蓝晒”。出于个人兴趣，我爱看闲书，碰到有趣的事情会找找相关资料。约翰·赫谢尔（John Frederick William Herschel）这个人很有意思，他是著名的天文学家、数学家、化学家及摄影师，而且写出几本有关天文学方面的的名著：《在好望角天文观测的结果》、《天文学大纲》。为纪念他对天文学的贡献，国际天文学联合会把第2000号小行星命名为赫歇耳小行星。赫谢尔家族的名言让人感动：“天文学让我们放弃所有对财富的追求，只为了获得虔诚的灵魂。只有当我们用人类谦卑虔诚的感恩之心、无穷无尽的求知欲和伟大造物主的神奇，天文学才会提供我们最纯粹的喜悦。”

“蓝晒”这种有点原始的摄影技术，是他偶然发现的。我想：为什么中国近代没有产生这一类人？我们对自身的存在以及周围的现象似乎失去了兴趣，人没有问题，文化也没什么问题。我觉的最大的问题来自于秩序，是我们的秩序不鼓励冒险，总是学而致用、循规蹈矩，太现实。没有冒险精神的民族注定会失败。

汉白玉雕塑延续了我过去对人的关注，这次使用了名贵材料，也有种象征意义。我希望所有人都是平等的，不分贵贱。

Gaming Hard for Independence-Zhang Dali on Life and Art

Text： Du Xiyun

Date     ： July21st， 2016

Method：Conversation by writing

Du Xiyun： In your opinion， does livingin the contemporary era make us “contemporary men”？

Zhang Dali： It depends on using what kindof scale to measure. If “contemporary men” is justa physical and temporal concept， then all men living in the contemporary eraare “contemporary men”. But if judged from the spiritual angle or the knowledgereserve， not all men are necessarily “contemporary men”.

When we emphasize “contemporary”， we mean to emphasizethe longitude and latitude lines of civilizationand a special thought and quality that “contemporary men” possess. This thoughtdiffers from previous ones. It is the right judgment and cognition that can bemade within the current knowledge structure. Otherwise people living in thecontemporary era are just trash.

Du Xiyun： What do you think is“contemporary art”？ Is there “false contemporary art”？

Zhang Dali： “Contemporaryart” is the “ideological achievement” of “contemporary men”. The so-called“false contemporary art” lacks this observation ability and quality andtherefore is incapable of conversing with the contemporary era.

Chinese “contemporary art” can generally be understoodas an art existing under the system pressure， therefore the artist’s point of view and attitude， namely the bottom line of histhought， is very important. I don’t think these spiritual things can be solvedby techniques. Due to the market demands， these years some “well-packed” artproducts sharing the same breath with the system or pandering to the market arecalled “contemporary art” simply because they have adopted the form of it. Thisis irreconcilable with the true essence of contemporary art and has blurred thevision of people. Pressure and revolt cannot be disguised. Why does aperson have to be a “contemporary artist”？ That’s completely unnecessary.Sticking to tradition is also a good choice.

Du Xiyun： What do you think is“Chinese contemporary art”？ What is the function of “Chinese contemporary art”in Chinese society？

Zhang Dali： “Chinesecontemporary art” is actually a rebellious art. This art， since its beginning，has never earned any favor from the system. From underground to overground， ithas suffered a very difficult time. Since the late 1990s， due to theadvance of capital and market， contemporary art has been popularized andaccepted by the system. But this doesn’t mean the idea and the spirit ofcontemporary art have been accepted by the system. With the system reform andthe market package， the concept of contemporary art has been secretly replacedand complicated. Sometimes it is purely a technique and way of expression onpeople’s mind. As far as I’m concerned， the same as contemporary ideology， contemporaryart is always marching on the road of criticism. They are wolves of thewilderness and will never be favored by sheep or their owners.

Du Xiyun： Do you think contemporaryartists need to have a basic stand？ If so， what kind of stand will it be？ Ifthey deviate or lose it， what kind of result will there be？

Zhang Dali： I don’tthink a contemporary artist without a stand can create any valuable artwork. An artist must have abasic stand of distinguishing good and evil and value judgement. Art creationis the embodiment of ideology， as well as the embodiment of humanity. If there is no humanistic compassion or love but thethought of “learning things in order to serve the court”， then an artist canonly be a snobbish craftsman and speculator. Contemporary art isrebellious art. Without a stand， one can let benefit lead his direction， andthat’s how a stand becomes a “beneficial stand”.

Du Xiyun： Do you think you’ve heldfast to certain basic stands？ Existence is small but complete， and flesh isgreedy and fearful. How do you face these temptations and pressures？

Zhang Dali： I’ve never given uptemptations. I need them. Existence has its owncomplexity. Humanity is even more complicated. In this complicated and toughgame， my grandest stand is the independence of being man.

Du Xiyun： Art needs instinctivesentiment， which is really complicated and often indescribable. The moreblurry， polysemic and ambiguous， the more “artistic quality” there is. But manyof your works are rather concise. Why did you make them that way？

Zhang Dali： I think good works havesomething in common-they do not repel people. Afterall， art is meant for people to see. Artists need to communicate， share andunderstand things with others. Why do we have to make things difficult forothers？ Is there anything in this world that cannot be clearly explained？ Isit really better to be unclear？

I think art creation is to clarifyunclear things or concepts and to speak out the heartfelt wishes of themajority. The more confidants， the better. Surely this is not secularization orpopulism， but using conciseness to generalize complexity and one sentence tospeak out the truth， a heart-penetrating insight. I ask myself to uphold thisstyle and not to complicate simple things through deliberate mystification. “Demolition” is“demolishing”. “Chinese Offspring” is the duplication of bodies. “The SecondHistory” is simplifying the country’s political ideology into two contrastivepictures， which are apparent to the eye and meanwhile reveal the complexitybehind. I am against complicating and blurring theworld. Knowledge is for simplifying and expurgating the world. Why do we learnknowledge only to act in contravention？

Du Xiyun： Your work has simple formbut strong conceptual nature. Correspondingly， knowledgeable people are moreeasily to feel the abundant connotation of it. Art and perceptual charm haveclose bound naturally. How do you review the relationship of your own stand，concept and way of expression？

Zhang Dali： These are fairly simpleand interconnected： accurate stand leads to distinct concept； distinct conceptfinds concise way of expression. Each concept has a corresponding way ofexpression. Maybe for me it is the best way. This has much to do with aperson’s acting style and value judgement. Life is but a span. I need to tellothers my thoughts in a limited time. Approximately in my sophomore year， I hadalready grasped this way of transformation. During the process of creation， Iam usually emotional， but during the process of thinking， I incline more toreason.

Du Xiyun： Mighty waves wash awaysand. Nowadays， many artists of the same age as you have distorted themselvesbeyond recognition or overdrawn their talents in order to pander to power andmarket. What is your opinion about that？

Zhang Dali： Everyone’s history is written by himself.You will be what you pursue. I don’t oppose market，but I know it’s not my ultimate goal. Money makes people rich， but notnecessarily smarter. Many people forgot their missions during the process ofpursuing wealth. Maybe that can’t be more normal， since it is theweakness of humanity.

Du Xiyun： Let’s talk about yourrecent works.

Zhang Dali： I’m doing two series now：one is “Cyanotype”， the other is white-marble sculpture.

I started to study “cyanotype” in 2009. I enjoyedlight reading and would search for related information when I encountered interestingstuff. John Frederick William Herschel was very interesting. He was a famousastronomer， mathematician， chemist and photographer who wrote several booksabout astrology： “Results of Astronomical Observations made at the Cape of GoodHope” and “Outlines of Astronomy”. In order to memorize his contribution toastronomy， International Astronomical Union named the No. 2000 asteroid “Herschel”.The motto of the Herschel family is touching： astronomy makes us give up thepursuit for wealth， so as to acquire a godly soul； only with modest， devout andgrateful heart， endless thirst for knowledge and the magic of the Creator， willastrology provide us with the purest joy.”

“Cyanotype”， a primitive technique of photography， wasaccidentally discovered by him. I think： why didn’t China have someone like himin recent times？ It seems we have lost interest in our existence and its surroundingphenomenon. There is no problem with our people or culture. The biggest problemcomes from the system. Our system doesn’t encourage adventure. Being toorealistic， we apply what we have learned and always toe the line. A nationwithout a spirit of adventure is doomed to fail.

White-marble sculpture continues my attention on otherpeople. This time I use precious and rare materials. There’s a symbolicmeaning： I hope everyone is equal， irrespective ofhigh or low birth.

Du Xiyun： I think your work “We” isthe best work of Chinese contemporary art since its beginning until now. Whatdo you think about it？ Where is it now？ Where do you hope it goes？

Zhang Dali： It’s stored in mywarehouse， for there’s hardly any opportunity for exhibition. It is a risky creation. I don’t know the result of therisk yet， but I believe this risk have to be taken by someone. This worktouches upon many questions. It seems to have reached the bottom line， not onlythe ultimate question of life， but also questions of art， history， society，political system， economy and law. All those questions are reflected on thefive specimens of human body. They are the portrayal of contemporary China.They are us. The way to explain them is the way to explain us. Leave all theseto our later generations…I haven’t figured out where this work should go.

编辑：隋萌